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Frustrated with the lack of info?

February 8, 2007 By 12 Comments

I don’t know about you but I’m often very frustrated with the lack of information about a project; I want to know all the details about sound proofing, cable drops, plumbing, etc. Or I’m frustrated that no information is available until days before the pre-sale/reservation process begins. Fortunately one our readers, Andy, has a great tip, visit the Department of Planning and Development:

As for research, I visited the mayor’s Design & Planning office at 700 Fifth (floor 20) to learn more about Trace. They have a stack of microfilm architectural plans, to scale, under the address 1412 12th Avenue. Free to peruse and $1 per sheet for a hard copy. It was good to see the floor plans in context and they had some elevations and structural details that ate up a good hour of browsing. The ventilation system for the parking structure was a bore, but seeing the relationship between Trace and the (immediately) adjacent Trace North redirected my interest from 306/206 to the 12th Avenue side. Looking at plans for an hour may have saved me a few years of looking at weird naked neighbors. Trace has updated their website to be more clear on this.

Other resources from the city include an historical record of permits and complaints (permit status) (note the scary earthquake reference at the bottom), and a meaty “Analysis and Decision of the Director of the Department of Planning and Development.” (PDF) It’s full of words like chamfered and fenestration.

In a later comment he also mentions,

The renovation plans for Trace are detailed–with specific views of the demolition, salvage, residential and commercial floor plans, soundproofing, waterproofing, structural, and landscaping design for the project (commercial floor plans for the street and mezzanine levels are in PDF format here: http://www.12thandmadison.com/trace_building.htm) There were interior and exterior elevations and unit plans down to the cable and power hookups, etc. There were plans for both the Trace Lofts proper and Trace North.

I’ll be making a trip down there one day next week to check out the plans for Trace North since the marketing firm won’t be sharing them until April after you’ve signed your purchase and sale at Trace Lofts.

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Matt , Urbnlivn's publisher, has a love for lofts with industrial features and new construction condos that is only eclipsed by his passion for outdoor sports and urban living. Phrases such as “polished concrete” and “exposed brick” are music to his ears. You can also find Matt on Twitter or skiing.

  • Andy

    I cut the marketing team some slack — the architects and design folks aren’t always in sync with the budget or construction reality, which isn’t always in sync with the municipal code regime. I treated the microfilm plans as a signal of the design intent, thematic cohesion (to the vision of a “new original”), architectural professionalism, etc. In other words, I was mostly looking for comfort in the thorough nature of the plans and the consistent reuse of original structural/ornamental elements, but wouldn’t really expect my unit to be spot on blueprint at completion.

    Also, I doubt that the sales team can make formal representations about the completed buildings’ specifics for contractual liability reasons.

  • Andy

    I cut the marketing team some slack — the architects and design folks aren’t always in sync with the budget or construction reality, which isn’t always in sync with the municipal code regime. I treated the microfilm plans as a signal of the design intent, thematic cohesion (to the vision of a “new original”), architectural professionalism, etc. In other words, I was mostly looking for comfort in the thorough nature of the plans and the consistent reuse of original structural/ornamental elements, but wouldn’t really expect my unit to be spot on blueprint at completion.

    Also, I doubt that the sales team can make formal representations about the completed buildings’ specifics for contractual liability reasons.

  • Ken

    Thanks for the tip, this is great info to have!

  • Ken

    Thanks for the tip, this is great info to have!

  • http://www.seattlecondoreview.com Wendy

    Trace Lofts has recently updated their website with pictures of the interiors.

  • http://www.seattlecondoreview.com Wendy

    Trace Lofts has recently updated their website with pictures of the interiors.

  • kh

    first a little background on the design process and role of the marketing/RE company… you’re right andy, the marketing team is not to blame for being the keeper of information we think they should be giving out. in all reality they are the last in line to receive the construction information from the rest of the project team (owner, developer, architect, interior designer, etc). if they don’t have the information in a state that has been finalized, there is no point of passing information along to potential buyers (could even be troublesome if major things change). being an interior designer myself, it amazes me how far along some of these projects are and they still don’t have the design intent figured out. the more info that can be finalized and passed along to potential buyers the better! if you have it – let us know… (like the photos at trace – it’s great to post glimses of the interior detailing and construction progress!)

    the developer ultimately is “running” the project and as much as we would all love to design a project and see it built on-time with everything according to the original design intent (vision of the entire team), that rarely happens because of time and budget restraints. developers generally have a long wish list of what they want the project to be, along with input from the marketing team, architects, and interior designers. it’s definitely a team effort to figure out what the proposed buyers will want to see in the project (in both large and small scale items of the project) so that in the end all the units sell quickly at a price to make the project profitable. i’m sure most of you understand the end goal of the developer is not rocket science…

    as much as the entire team would love to put everything into that project, there will always be a process to VE or “value engineer” their wishlist into the actual budget. i can’t think of a project in the last 6 years that hasn’t had some form of VE after all the pricing starts coming in from the sub-contractors. it’s not just because the “architects and design folks arent always in sync with the budget or construction reality” there are far more times when the developer wants something that costs more than they originally estimated it would.

    if you decide that you understand the building process well enough to make sense of a set of plans, it’s a great idea to go review the project you’re interested in at the building department. keep in mind that the plans will show how the project will comply with building codes and city requirements but they won’t necessarily show asthetic issues from the inside/out. a project must obtain a building permit in order to start construction, so those plans are available to the public. the building department is NOT going to give you a presentation and walk you through the project. they will help you find the microfilm drawings (building plans showing any demo/new construction, electrical, plumbing) and let you browse through them yourself.

    also, keep in mind that most commercial and multi-family projects in seattle with 20 or more units (depending on zone and location) must go through a design review process, so that information should also be available. the design review includes 5 major categories:

    A. Site Planning (respect for adjacent sites, how the project fits on the site, vehicle access,etc.)
    B. Height, Bulk, Scale
    C. Architectural Elements and Materials (human scale and exterior finish materials)
    D. Pedestrian Environment (open spaces & entrances, visuals of retaining walls, personal safety/security, signage, lighting)
    E. Landscaping (continuity with adjacent sites, enhance or address site conditions)

    the building department has some great information on their website as well:

    http://www.seattle.gov/dpd/Planning/Design_Review_Program/Applicant_s_Toolbox/default.asp

  • kh

    first a little background on the design process and role of the marketing/RE company… you’re right andy, the marketing team is not to blame for being the keeper of information we think they should be giving out. in all reality they are the last in line to receive the construction information from the rest of the project team (owner, developer, architect, interior designer, etc). if they don’t have the information in a state that has been finalized, there is no point of passing information along to potential buyers (could even be troublesome if major things change). being an interior designer myself, it amazes me how far along some of these projects are and they still don’t have the design intent figured out. the more info that can be finalized and passed along to potential buyers the better! if you have it – let us know… (like the photos at trace – it’s great to post glimses of the interior detailing and construction progress!)

    the developer ultimately is “running” the project and as much as we would all love to design a project and see it built on-time with everything according to the original design intent (vision of the entire team), that rarely happens because of time and budget restraints. developers generally have a long wish list of what they want the project to be, along with input from the marketing team, architects, and interior designers. it’s definitely a team effort to figure out what the proposed buyers will want to see in the project (in both large and small scale items of the project) so that in the end all the units sell quickly at a price to make the project profitable. i’m sure most of you understand the end goal of the developer is not rocket science…

    as much as the entire team would love to put everything into that project, there will always be a process to VE or “value engineer” their wishlist into the actual budget. i can’t think of a project in the last 6 years that hasn’t had some form of VE after all the pricing starts coming in from the sub-contractors. it’s not just because the “architects and design folks aren’t always in sync with the budget or construction reality” there are far more times when the developer wants something that costs more than they originally estimated it would.

    if you decide that you understand the building process well enough to make sense of a set of plans, it’s a great idea to go review the project you’re interested in at the building department. keep in mind that the plans will show how the project will comply with building codes and city requirements but they won’t necessarily show asthetic issues from the inside/out. a project must obtain a building permit in order to start construction, so those plans are available to the public. the building department is NOT going to give you a presentation and walk you through the project. they will help you find the microfilm drawings (building plans showing any demo/new construction, electrical, plumbing) and let you browse through them yourself.

    also, keep in mind that most commercial and multi-family projects in seattle with 20 or more units (depending on zone and location) must go through a design review process, so that information should also be available. the design review includes 5 major categories:

    A. Site Planning (respect for adjacent sites, how the project fits on the site, vehicle access,etc.)
    B. Height, Bulk, Scale
    C. Architectural Elements and Materials (human scale and exterior finish materials)
    D. Pedestrian Environment (open spaces & entrances, visuals of retaining walls, personal safety/security, signage, lighting)
    E. Landscaping (continuity with adjacent sites, enhance or address site conditions)

    the building department has some great information on their website as well:

    http://www.seattle.gov/dpd/Planning/Design_Review_Program/Applicant_s_Toolbox/default.asp

  • Commanderobvious

    I agree with KH on most all points.

    An additional participant who is usually forgotten about when making time-lines and schedules is the city. Presently the City of Seattle’s Department of Planning and Development (DPD) says that they are 4-6 behind their schedules. In actuality they are closer to 8-12 weeks behind, but some reviews can take up to 6-7 months. The reason behind this is the high volume of projects that are being submitted, combined with them being wholly understaffed.

    This has lead to a lot of projects being moved to a Phased Permit strategy. In actuality this does not speed up the process, however it does give the developer/design team a longer grace period during which they can make changes while still having portions of the project submitted for review.

    An example of this would submitting for the excavation and shoring permit while you are getting the concrete structure designed, and then submitting for the concrete permit while you are finishing the building envelope design.

    The relevance of this to this post has to do with the microfilm plans. Architectural plans do not have to be finalized when submitting for phased permit, and while the city says that they should be 95% complete, that just isn’t the case. As such drastic changes to interior spaces can still be made. Simply put looking at the plans for Phase I of a 4 phase project might be a bit misleading, so that should be kept in mind.

  • Commanderobvious

    I agree with KH on most all points.

    An additional participant who is usually forgotten about when making time-lines and schedules is the city. Presently the City of Seattle’s Department of Planning and Development (DPD) says that they are 4-6 behind their schedules. In actuality they are closer to 8-12 weeks behind, but some reviews can take up to 6-7 months. The reason behind this is the high volume of projects that are being submitted, combined with them being wholly understaffed.

    This has lead to a lot of projects being moved to a Phased Permit strategy. In actuality this does not speed up the process, however it does give the developer/design team a longer grace period during which they can make changes while still having portions of the project submitted for review.

    An example of this would submitting for the excavation and shoring permit while you are getting the concrete structure designed, and then submitting for the concrete permit while you are finishing the building envelope design.

    The relevance of this to this post has to do with the microfilm plans. Architectural plans do not have to be finalized when submitting for phased permit, and while the city says that they should be 95% complete, that just isn’t the case. As such drastic changes to interior spaces can still be made. Simply put looking at the plans for Phase I of a 4 phase project might be a bit misleading, so that should be kept in mind.

  • kh

    most developers and the A&D community are fully aware of the delayed timeline of the building dept’s around the area (and factor that into the schedule). so while it affects the overall construction timeline (new & renovated) it doesn’t affect the reason why the team is behind in finalizing the design or the marketing materials aren’t showing all the information buyers want to see. these are two completely different phases of the project. the question i get from most of my friends is why so late in the project are these design decisions being made.

    i have worked with quite a few developers that understand how to schedule project timelines. they also know what it takes to have all their ducks in a row before marketing to the public. they of course want to spark interest, but it only looks bad on them if they haven’t finalized all the details of the project(especially those items that buyers are interested in hearing and seeing). the success of a project ultimately comes down to the selling process. the developer wins if buyers are interested, happy, and buy in their project.

  • kh

    most developers and the A&D community are fully aware of the delayed timeline of the building dept’s around the area (and factor that into the schedule). so while it affects the overall construction timeline (new & renovated) it doesn’t affect the reason why the team is behind in finalizing the design or the marketing materials aren’t showing all the information buyers want to see. these are two completely different phases of the project. the question i get from most of my friends is why so late in the project are these design decisions being made.

    i have worked with quite a few developers that understand how to schedule project timelines. they also know what it takes to have all their ducks in a row before marketing to the public. they of course want to spark interest, but it only looks bad on them if they haven’t finalized all the details of the project(especially those items that buyers are interested in hearing and seeing). the success of a project ultimately comes down to the selling process. the developer wins if buyers are interested, happy, and buy in their project.